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Monday, March 31, 2008

Cultural Christianity: Bringing Together What God Hath Put Asunder

Recent evangelical theology, as well as the emergent-emerging movement, has trumpeted the cause for a kind of marriage between church and culture. Of course, they've done so to different degrees and in different ways, with the the evangelical folks appealing to a sense of immediacy and immanence, and the emergent-emerging folks appealing (at least in theory) to a sense of the transcendent. Nevertheless, the end result is the same; and the best way to describe this wide-ranging phenomenon that crosses denominational and theological boundaries (and makes strange bed-fellows out of folks who would otherwise be at odds) is as multiple expressions of a kind of cultural Christianity.


This, of course, is nothing new. One could argue that Finney's new measures (e.g., the anxious bench) were the 19th century expression of this same trend, just without modern technology. Finney rejected not only the doctrines of grace, but the means of grace, in favor of what he determined would produce the greatest results in the culture of his day and age. Since Finney, however, we've seen a great many incarnations of this approach, but it is increasingly the case in today's variegated evangelicalism (using that term in its broadest possible sense) that the one thing held in common is the presupposition that the church needs to be in step with today's ways in order to reach today's people. If you don't believe me, look up George Barna's research, and you'll see what evangelical and emergent-emerging folk are both thinking. For evangelicalism and emergent-emerging folk alike culture has become the defining principle in the church's articulation and application of her mission.


Admittedly, this is painting with a broad brush; this thesis doesn't take into account the ways in which the principle might be mitigated in certain contexts or exacerbated in others. Nevertheless, that this is easily demonstrated across the theological and ecclesiastical spectrum, raises a whole host of questions, not the least of which is whether or not it is, in fact, necessary for the church to accommodate to or adapt to (or even become like) the surrounding culture in order to fulfill her divinely-ordained and divinely-revealed mission? Is this kind of cultural Christianity justifiable?


If you know me, you know my answer: no, on both counts. We cannot bring together what God has put asunder. Cultural Christianity is an oxymoron, to the extent that cult (i.e., Christ's kingdom, the church) is ever distinct from culture in this new covenant age. "My kingdom," Jesus said, "is not of this world" (John 8:36). The church is "other-worldly," since we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem and the mediator of a better covenant, Jesus Christ (cf. Heb 12:22-24). Thus, in a very particular (i.e., theological, ecclesiastical, and liturgical) way, we are not ultimately interested in the culture and its ways, but Christ and his ways. In fact, if the church isn't self-consciously counter-cultural, in terms of confessing her faith (both doctrinally and liturgically), then, as our Lord declared, we will have lost our savor, and will be worthy only to be cast out (cf. Matt 5:13). The church that panders to the culture, in our Lord's estimation, is worthless.

Often we hear our Lord's words in Matthew 5:13 applied in terms of evangelism: to be the salt of the earth we need to be vigilant in our efforts to extend the influence of Christ throughout the world. If we're talking about missionary efforts to proclaim the gospel, fine. If, however, we've begun to think that 'salting' the earth requires accommodation to it, then we've completely missed the point. Jesus is speaking of the church -- that one holy catholic and apostolic church -- as that which is decidedly distinct and separate from the world (as Machen put it). No, not in the sense that fundamentalism has come to understand it: not drinking, not smoking, not playing cards, etc. The world from which we are separate is "that way of life that fallen humanity substitutes for God's holy ways. It is the world as an idol, as a rival to God's Word" (see Hart and Muether, With Reverence and Awe, 29). The salt loses its savor, then, when we stop preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation for fallen man. The salt loses its savor when the world, instead of the Word, regulates our worship. The salt loses its savor -- the church ceases to be the church in any meaningful, biblical way -- when we lose the sense of our separateness and our distinctness as the assembly of God's holy people (again, in a very practical way in terms of our proclamation and our worship).

The church needs to recapture a proper sense of its heavenly (i.e., other-worldly) and holy character; and when we do so, we will be forced to heed a heavenly and holy agenda, one which is intrinsically at odds with worldliness. We cannot function as the salt of the earth by taking up the world's, or the culture's, agenda. No, we function as the salt of the earth as we (i.e., the church) fulfill the great commission (cf. Matt 28:18-20). And what does that look like? What will that entail? The Shorter Catechism puts it best in question and answer 88: "What are the outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption? The outward and ordinary means whereby Christ communicates to us the benefits of redemption are his ordinances, especially the word, sacraments, and prayer; all which are made effectual to the elect for salvation." In other words, the fact that the church is counter-cultural, or contra mundum, is evidenced most clearly as we separate out from the world on the Lord's Day, gather together in Christ's name and at Christ's summons, to hear his word read and preached, to eat the bread and drink the cup of the Supper, and to offer up our petitions and our praises (both spoken and sung).

The world, the culture-at-large, will think this is utter nonsense. Should that dissuade us from maintaining a commitment to Word and sacrament and prayer? Should that prompt us to do something different, something more appealing, something more attractive, even something that appears more practical in reaching the lost? No, because that isn't God's way; indeed, none of the 'new measures' of today's evangelicalism or today's emergent-emerging-missional churches have not the promise of Christ attached to them: "lo, I am with you unto the end of the age" (Matt 28:20). None of them carry the promise of being made effectual unto salvation. None of them are the savor of death unto death in those that are perishing, but the savor of life unto life in those that believe.

Speaking in terms that are largely ignored today, Machen wrote, "The responsibility of the church in the new age is the same as its responsibility in every age. It is to testify that this world is lost in sin; that the span of human life—no, all the length of human history—is an infinitesimal island in the awful depths of eternity; that there is a mysterious, holy, living God, Creator of all. Upholder of all, infinitely beyond all; that he has revealed himself to us in his Word and offered us communion with himself through Jesus Christ the Lord; that there is no other salvation…save this, but that this salvation is full and free, and that whoever possesses it has for himself and for all others to whom he may be the instrument of bringing it a treasure compared with which all the kingdoms of the earth…are as the dust of the street. An unpopular message it is—an impractical message, we are told. But it is the message of the Christian church. Neglect it, and you will have destruction; heed it, and you will have life (see Machen, “The Responsibility of the Church in our New Age,” in J. Gresham Machen: Selected Shorter Writings, 376).

Now, this approach does not justify the church imbibing a kind of new imperialism, where we become culturally insensitive or rude in the name of the gospel. We are, however, arguing that where the church becomes like the world, she has lost her savor. Let us, then, deal with those unseen things of eternity, proclaiming that God's grace in Christ is full and free, even to the worst of sinners who will repent and believe; and let us not trifle with those temporal things that are seen, but instead worship in spirit and in truth, with reverence and with awe, the true and living God, the God of our redemption, with whom we enjoy communion of "infinite sweetness" (again, quoting Machen).

Let me put it simply: the church needs to be the church, as Christ ordains, as Christ reveals, and as Christ commands. That means we must not join together what he has put asunder. Betrothing ourselves to this world is the quickest way for the church to become irrelevant, at least in terms of that which really matters. Let us, then, eschew labels such as "user-friendly," "seeker-sensitive," and "culturally-adept," and instead be the faithful bride of the Lord Jesus Christ and thus serve and worship the Lord our God as those who already know, in principle, the blessings of heaven, of the age to come.

Let the church be the church of Jesus Christ.

27 comments:

Robin said...

Stefan,
Good post. I've always thought that a lack of confidence in the gospel may be one of the reasons folks try to integrate culture into the church. Is the gospel (the Word) relevant or do we need to jazz it up so people will 'see the light?'
see my post at
http://cigar-theology.com/regulative-principle-of-worship/

Stefan said...

Robin,

Good to see you again.

Also, good point. Part of the reason so many have departed from the divinely-ordained means of grace is an ultimate lack of confidence in the God of all grace. We don't think the gospel is sufficient to save, nor do we think the God of the gospel is sufficient to save. How tragic.

Stefan

p.s. are you going to GA?

Robin said...

Yes, Brandon, Chad and I are driving and will arive late Monday ...

Stefan said...

See you there.

Jonathan said...

First off, I think the discussion is focused on the wrong aspect of our roles here on this earth.

Jesus prayed to the Father thus,
John 17:14-19 (NKJV)
14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

What does this prayer mean?

Simply put, it means that we are not our own but that we belong to The Lord.

What else does it mean?

That He has deliberately not removed us from the world but in fact has placed us strategically within our very culture in the year 2008, as He is completing His eternal plan of Salvation thru the physical bodies of His chosen people (us).

Now, people can get all caught up in what way we are or are not to pursue the unsaved man or woman. And I do not condone the actions of most of todays churches! Nor do I condone the actions of most of yesterdays church's, nor do I condone the actions of most of yester, yester, yester years church's!

What I do condone though, is the reaching out to an utterly lost world, that is perishing all the while we are to busy fighting about "style" and ignoring God's Holy calling to reach them, whilst sitting comfortably in our church seats/pews, reading the Word of God with absolutely correct Biblical doctrine making sure we are true to the Word, while the perishing world wastes away outside our very doors and we sit inside condemning the rest of Christ's body whom we declare in our own self pride and arrogance to be either unbelieving or "out of Christ's Blessing" and outside the will of God the Father.

The Bible declares,
Romans 10:6-7 (NKJV)
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

I do not mean to say that you have no right to speak against false doctrine, by all means DO speak against false teaching and teachers.
But I dare not be so bold and on dangerous ground, as to spread words that declare God's chosen instruments to be outside of His good graces, based upon the fact that they are more culturally relevant then yours or my particular gatherings of believers.
This is to call into question why any church besides your own even exists, and that is unacceptable to both God and to your brethren in Christ!

You may use Psalters and Hymns, okay, that is good, now tell me where in Scripture does God command you to use only Psalters and Hymns?

The Word of God says,
Colossians 3:16 (NKJV)
16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

This declares but one thing to all brethren in Christ Jesus, that we are to sing Psalms and Hymns and spiritual songs.
Can you tell me that this declares how you are to sing them? And with what instruments? And whether to use a choir or not? Whether this means just a single piano or does this mean a full 160 piece orchestra? How about a band with 3 electric guitars, a drummer, a keyboard, and a violinist?

Thus says the Word of the Lord,
2 Samuel 6:5 (NKJV)
5 Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals.
1 Chronicles 13:8 (NKJV)
8 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.
And here's one more for good measure:
2 Chronicles 5:11-13
And it came to pass when the priests came out of the Most Holy Place (for all the priests who were present had sanctified themselves, without keeping to their divisions), 12 and the Levites who were the singers, all those of Asaph and Heman and Jeduthun, with their sons and their brethren, stood at the east end of the altar, clothed in white linen, having cymbals, stringed instruments and harps, and with them one hundred and twenty priests sounding with trumpets— 13 indeed it came to pass, when the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD, and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of music, and praised the LORD, saying, “For He is good, For His mercy endures forever,” that the house, the house of the LORD, was filled with a cloud,

Wow, 120 trumpeters? I don't know about you, but this sounds like when pumped up and loud gathering of believers to me! ... All kinds of instruments?
Man, this sounds like a wholly devoted and inspired group of true worshippers and I am willing to assume, that if they had had electricity, they'd likely have used some amplifiers, electric guitars and a drum set! Those would have most certainly been included in this gigantic show of praise to our God! I see no reason why they wouldn't. Do you?

Then tell me where the line is drawn? And who drew it? At what point has the Lord God declared certain instruments or styles of "contemporary sounds" wrong, forbidden, or irreverential? Do you think these particular worshippers worshiped based upon 150 year old customs and deliberately did not choose the latest sounds of their culture? When did God declare to worshippers to avoid the latest sounds in worshipping Him in Truth? And also, if you go on the idea of worshipping in an older style, then explain to me why you do not worship as the very Bible described it? With trumpeters, harps and lyre's, and various instruments? Sure a piano is fine, but who said it must stop there?

God desires one thing when we sing, for us to sing with our whole heart, mind, body and soul, in worshipful praise and adoration of Him alone!
And He does not ever declare in which style to do so, thus allowing us the freedom to worship Him as we so freely in Christ Jesus can as regenerate human beings made in His likeness.

Can you declare to me that this is what takes place in your local house of worship on Sunday?
Or is it possibly less then focused entirely on Him and instead is kept inside a particular realm of "acceptable form of praise" and thus any other form of praise in inappropriate for the redeemed in Christ?

I am not attacking anyone's church nor anyone's own personal preferences. 1 Piano is fine, as long as it is True to Him. a 10 piece band is fine, as long is it is True to Him, and by the Bible's own account, 120 loud horns plus tons of other noise makers, are fine, as long as it is True to Him.
What I am attacking however is the placing of rules and regulations on God's Elect that He Himself NEVER placed upon us!
This is just like the Roman Catholic Church did and the Pharisees did, and many other groups have done throughout the history of the church.
Placed un-God ordained restrictions on the "style" of praise and adoration that His followers may use to worship their God and Master.

Now what does all of this have to do with cultural relevance?

You tell me.

What does your local church do to reach the lost?

Very simple question. ... The lost are in a "culture" and simply put, are you shutting them out for that reason?

Here's some quick questions:
1. Are you equipping the saints to go out and make disciples of the world?
Or are you training them up to be good church goers on Sunday?
2. Is your flock actively engaging the lost world in which we all live and introducing the lost to Christ through the Gospel?
Or again, are they consistent church attenders?
3. Do you sing praise to the Lord (and tell me in good conscience) that is truly from your heart as you would literally praise Him if you were in His presence right now?
Or is the singing based upon a style formed by your particular denomination or group and unwilling to express as you might be led in a moment of pure joy in Christ?

If it is based upon a denominations' style, that is fine, I have no qualms with that. My question is posed simply to illustrate that your style is not God's choice over some other member of Christ's body! You may think it is, but it isn't! God loves from the heart worship, even from a terrible voice like mine!
God loves true worship and believe me my beloved brothers in Christ, it sounds different in Africa then in Kirkland, it sounds different in Japan then in Kirkland, it sounds different in Russia then in Kirkland, it sounds different in Mexico then it sounds in Kirkland, it sounds different in Iceland then it sounds in Kirkland, so my friend and brother in Christ, why should it not sound different in Seattle or Chicago or Los Angeles then it does in Kirkland, or Snohomish, or Bellevue?

Do you see what I am trying to lovingly convey here for the building up of your particular church body of Christ's overall body of believers?

When we get into any discussion that is focused doctrine, by all means, what is plain in Scripture MUST be upheld.

But when we are discussing personal or denominational preferences, that have no Biblical basis, even if you may mistakenly believe they have, it only harms and causes division amongst Christ's body and God has some words for those among us who participate in such division.
He declares that it is unholy, unloving, most of all unChrist like, and is a sin and therefore must be repented of.
Christ calls for us to bear with one another, to build up His body (which is all believers) to admonish and lovingly correct a stumbling brother.
However, He does not declare that you are to call out your brother, even if you have issue with his personal preferences to particular style of dress (unless it is immodest/wrong), his style of pulpit (unless it is sinful), his style of musical choice (unless it is sinful), his style of church design (unless it is sinful), his style of graphics on the bulletins (unless it is sinful), his style of evangelizing the unsaved world (unless it is sinful).

God calls YOU and ME, to be His instruments through which He spreads the Gospel. If YOU or I had the only way in which that is supposed to be conducted, then YOUR church or MY church would be the required locale of worship for all believers worldwide (yeah kinda like the Muslims huh?), YOUR's or MY style of worship music would be Biblically required for all of Christ's body worldwide, and so on and so forth.

Satan is alive and well in our "culture" my dear brethren and he is alive and well inside of our church's! Yes, I said that, and I know you believe it, otherwise, this "cultural relevance" issue would never have been raised in the first place, unless of course satan is alive and well. ... Ever noticed a woman's body inappropriately while at the pulpit? Even if you repented instantly, that shows evil is always at hand whether inside of us or a satanic influence!

So this begs the question. Is satanic influence at all even slightly possibly behind this divisional thinking within the very body of Christ that is supposed to be united in Him?
No way, could not be us, you might say to yourself! Never could our church be wrong and the "culturally more relevant" church be right!
I didn't say that either. But what I did ask was this, "Could satan be behind this division?" ... You need to seriously ask yourself this question, seek the Lord in diligent prayer and meditation and especially in His Word. Because I believe the answers are all in black and white, right there in His inerrant eternal Word!

Here's some questions to ask yourself about the body of Christ which you are but a single member of and not only in your church building, but in this country and worldwide:
1.
a. Am I encouraging and lifting up the body of Christ through my words and actions, thus my opinions, for the building up and equipping of the saints in Christ Jesus?
b. Or am I picking my personal preferences over the well being and the building up of His elect that may attend elsewhere?
2.
a. Does the Word of God tell me in which is the only style of music by which I am to worship Him?
b. Or does my personal style of worship have the freedom to express itself now that I am in Christ?
3.
a. Does my church's personal style of music, in any way, violate the Word of God?
b. Or does my personal opinion violate the Word of God by adding to it or taking away from His Word, that which it actual does or does not specifically say?
4.
a. Am I helping to equip the saints for the monumental task of spreading the Gospel to all the nations, for Christ's sake, to the Glory of God the Father?
b. Or am I wasting His alloted time for me, and this mere spec in eternity, debating over how best to reach a dying world instead of getting out there and doing it?
5.
a. Does the Word of the living and all true God, give me an explicit formula in which to share the Gospel with the unsaved in "my particular culture?"
b. Or does the Word of God allow me freedom in which style/form I may share the Gospel of the Only Way of Salvation with my particular culture?
6.
a. Does my church worship God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit in truth?
b. Or do we worship God according to a certain set of rules (which is not always bad nor is it always good), predetermined by a larger body outside of these church walls (again not always bad nor always good), that is based on a set of preferences instead of a true focus on why we are meeting here in the first place, which is to commune with the living God in #1 Prayer, #2 Worship by the reading of His Word and the singing of songs (Psalms, Hymns AND spiritual songs.)?
c. If we are "doing church" according to a set of guidelines, are they Biblical, reverential, and done in Truth to our God in Heaven though freely in a particular style that we approve of?
7.
a. Is our particular church flock, sharing the Good News with the lost community around us? This includes our places of work, where we shop, where we get our car fixed, our neighbors and our children's friends, etc.
b. Or are we good church attenders that read God's Word in total Truth, sing in Truth, Pray in Truth, yet it stops when we leave these premises and upon reentering the "culture" we willingly or unknowingly hit the shut off switch, in the name of protecting our redeemed selves from the contamination of the "culture?"
8.
a. By cultural relevance, are we as a church and or individuals, suggesting that Jesus Christ did NOT adapt Himself to the culture of His day? Are we saying that Paul, did not become all things to all men? (Now I know you will say that did not mean culture, and that is partially correct, but only partially.) Reason is this, are we saying that Paul did not use the god's in the pagan cultures that he witnessed to, nor their festivities, as a way of reaching the lost in those cultures? By the way, Paul preached to many, many cultures, and not in a single style.
b. Or are we adding again or taking away again, something that the Bible never tells you precisely?
9.
a. Is our church welcoming to the lost man or woman that is caught up in a wicked lifestyle influenced by the culture?
b. Or are we so focused on removing ourselves from said culture that our church is utterly irrelevant to a sinner trapped in wickedness, within the very same culture in which God chose in eternity past to place you and me into at this very place on earth, time, culture, social level, etc.?
10.
a. What are some ways, not as a gimmick or as a giving an edge to wicked society, but what are some ways in which we can be lovingly and dutifully relevant to the lost culture around us that we may be able to attract and introduce to the Gospel (the Word of God, the Good News) a lost soul who otherwise would never attend our church even once do to the fact that he doesn't have the slightest idea what Christian's are really about and thus walks into our church and wonders why we are "weird"?
b. Or am I going to choose to isolate myself (which God condemns) from the rest of the world, in order to keep my light under a basket, so as to protect my eternal light from a dirty world that might want to try and blow it out?

My point is this, if we true Christian's continue to talk "cultural relevance" and bicker amongst ourselves over how best to protect ourselves from the wickedness that is this world. My brethren, we will meet the Lord soon and very soon, in Glory and He will have some very unpleasant rebuke for those of us who wasted His alloted time, who allowed souls to perish without hearing (as we have been priviledged to hear) the Good News, having fought over minute things and bickered like children which in reality is bickering with Christ Himself, that we secluded ourselves in our safe little congregation and shut the darkness outside instead of inviting the darkness to come in and see the light!
God has NO admiration for a Christian in self induced isolation! I do not care what excuse you may give me, sure the little sinners deserve Hell, BUT SO DO YOU unless you have forgotten who you really are apart from Christ!!! There is no excuse to shut out a perishing world when He has ORDERED both YOU and ME, to share the Gospel even unto our own DEATH!!!
Now, answer me this, if with a clear conscience you can.
Are you, your congregation, am I, or the church down the street (which you have declared their style of outreach to not be blessed by Christ), reaching out to the lost?
Tell me honestly! This is no time for games nor a time for a but, but, but they...... But They Nothing! ... Are you going to spread God's Word to a culture that might spit on you or are you going to be pious and tell them all to go to hell unless they "desire" to DO church the way you do? The culture likes rock music, does that mean you ignore them because you do not associate with "this culture?"
We are a culture that might want to clap their hands while a kid plays electric guitar while the congregation sings to God out of sheer joy for the Salvation that YOU and I have sadly become so accustomed to!
Are you going to, in good conscience, tell me that I am going to the wrong church because we use electric guitars to sing the Psalms?
Did you even know that we sing Psalms and Hymns? Have you ever even been to my church? ... I was told by you that you've never heard of a church NOT having communion after the service. In you own words, you declared to me that you knew nothing about my church because despite being a preacher and being older then me, you have never gone to a church outside your denomination before? If that's true, then how can you condemn what we are doing when you've only read about it in a broad sense? And interestingly enough, we've had this conversation, you and me, of whether it is Biblical or not to have the Lord's Supper every single Sunday. Remember that conversation? ... Well, we do have it every Sunday and why do I mention this? ... To express my point, that you are calling out your fellow believers and brothers in Christ for doing church differently from yours, yet you've never heard of the only way I have ever experienced church in my 26 years on earth, which is to have communion before the sermon.
Stefan, my point is, you said in your own words, that they do not have the blessing of Christ, well, I prayed before I started writing this and I am being lead to correct you in brotherly love, for your sake and that of your church flock, to watch how you speak against Christ's elect, when you have no idea what they actually are doing outside of your sphere.
This is why I have told many a people, the danger of reading and filling one's head with book knowledge, and not street knowledge. It may sound fine from a theologian or a pastor you may look up to, to go after the growing church in America and the way we are reaching out to the lost in our church's, but believe me when I tell you this. You do not have all the answers, nor do I, and therefore, it is most unwise to speak against a brother, whether you realize they are a brother or not, for not doing church the way your church does just because the styles vary but the doctrine is exactly the same. How do I know it's the same? Because I've attended your church, listened to many a months worth of sermons and spoken with you, and I have done the same for this other church, I've attended, listened for many a months of sermons, and spoken with it's leaders.
My new church uses electric guitars and drums and such, and it is entirely reverential and pleasing to our Father in Heaven, because I / we, sing with our hearts and our mouths, sure not all of us and at all times, but those that do, we are singing to the Lord from our hearts, raising His name on high, for the Glorious Salvation that He has chosen to bestow upon a wicked, unGodly, rebellious, sexually defiled, now redeemed and repentant man!

This is a super quick rundown of church this morning (Sunday) ... Opens with a prayer, then we all read the passage out loud, then we sang 2 Hymns, prayed again, then the sermon, then we prayed again and prepared ourselves for the Lord's Table, then the band started playing Psalms and Hymns as we all partook in communion with wine, then whole congregation joined in the singing of Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual songs for a total of 2 songs during Communion and another 4 with the whole congregation, then we prayed once more and dismissed. Hung out in the lobby, drank coffee and fellowshipped.
Now you cannot tell from this description whether or not we did this unto Christ, but I can tell you this, I did by His grace though to be honest I did get distracted by a blonde that sat next to me, she was entirely modest, in fact had a coat on, but she was beautiful and I am single, as she was too :-D But I sought the Lord during service to keep me focused on Him, and He eliminated the distraction. It was wonderful Him working this out for me! And the electric guitar wielding band leader, stopped the music at one point and asked us why we came today? He said, was it for a good sermon? Was it for the music? Was it for the church cause it's Sunday? Or was allllll of it for Christ? Did I worship Christ before I came and will I worship Him after I leave?
Now here was a man, that got it right. He knew to make sure to look out for the brethren and make sure that we were not there cause the music was great, but because the music was to be lifted up to Jesus Christ in worship. ... Very rare have I ever heard those questions posed to me at church before.
And I was in a church that is across the water from yours and a church which you have railed against. And by my own experience here, I believe that though your intentions may be good, you need to listen to our God in Heaven through His Word, before you listen to you theologians or mentors.

If I sound angry, I assure you that I am not. I am simply getting sick and tired of the body of Christ's infighting about music styles, about whether we read the NKJV or the ESV or the NASB! I am sick and tired of church's trying to keep themselves restrained while supposedly worshipping their CREATOR and SAVIOR and PROVIDER God Almighty based upon personal opinions! I am fed up with those who claim to be believers, talking about the believer down the street who listens to 105.3fm (Christian music station) while you might not listen to "contemporary Christian music" and yet either listen to some band from your heyday that is head first flying into hell or while you listen to a Piano Rendition of the 86 Psalm on a CD!
I am not attacking you or anyone else, I am asking everyone who claims to be in Christ to take a good hard look at the man inside and compare that to Scripture!

Where are you at in your walk with Christ? ... Where is your brother or sister down the street going to that "culturally relevant" church, at in their walk with Christ? Could you maybe reach out to them instead of condemning their style of worship, again, of which you have no personal experience?
Has it occurred to anyone to stop fighting over the "I'm a Reformist" ... I'm a Calvinist ... I'm a Reformed Baptist ... I'm an Evangelical Free ... I'm a Bible Church guy ... I'm a Southern Baptist ... I'm just a plain ol' Baptist ... I'm a Christ Jesus believing Saved Catholic ... I go to a Lutheran Church down the street cause I've always kinda gone to those, but I do Trust in Jesus Christ as my only Hope of eternal life?
Do you see what I mean? ... When was the most recent time we tried to help the brother or sister who may be stumbling or may be going into the wrong church? ... Do we help them? Or do we stand by and say "Ah, God will sort em out in the end!"
Well my brother you are correct in saying that, only problem is, God desired to save you. Yes, sinful rebellious old you, and He did that for two reasons, #1, for His Glory, #2 so that He through your physical body could go out and save some more debased wicked utterly depraved sinners just like you!

So in closing, and I promise that I am done now, for anyone still hanging on (which I hope is all who started reading)..........

If you "do" church one way. Fine, great, do that with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, to the Glory of God the Father, through God the Son, by the power of God the Holy Spirit. ... If you are going to do it for any other reason, then you might as well just quit and go back to living wildly, because, if you are at church for the wrong reasons, then you are not at church at all!
Stop condemning the denomination that you are not a part of and focus instead on the men, women and children in YOUR church that struggle with sin, temptation, worldliness, greed, anger, covetousness, slander, idolatry, etc., every single day! ... God has placed you in your church right here and right now for a reason, and believe me, it is NOT to have you focus on the guy down the street and how he happened to sing praises to the Lord on Sunday. ... It is for YOU and ME to focus on the sheep all around us, whom God has entrusted to us, to shepherd, to rebuke, to console, to lift up, to train, to teach, to encourage, to pluck from out of the fire, and to help defend against the wiles of the devil and his army which is hell bent on the destruction of every member of the Body of Christ, from the highest up (preachers) to the very weakest (children and those struggling with a particular sin)!
We are running out of time Stefan, we need to be doers of God's Word, not just readers and repeaters of His Word, but doers! Which means engaging the culture, no matter how vile, that is around us, not shutting them out by turning them off to Christianity because they do not like your style of church, and certainly a bad use of our time here would be to continue to speak against these other ways in which the Holy Spirit is moving throughout our society!
Are all church's good and worthy of admonishing? Course not. But believe me, I have been to about a dozen denominations in my life, and dozens of church's, from the really dry and stale, to the charismatic, to the Evangelical to now Reformed Baptist, and do you know what I have found in every one of them?
Two things:
#1. People who love and obey God.
#2. People who claim to love but don't obey God.
There are Christians and non Christians in probably every church on earth. The Bible warns us against false teachers, but nowhere does it warn us about keeping the unsaved out of our midst! I know that is NOT what you said in your post, but brother, it is how you are acting, when you claim that the Holy Spirit is not in the places where He is. Because from personal experience, I know that He is in fact there right now.
Maybe that's why God has moved me around with my family so much over the years, to show me that man has no clue how to worship God on his own, and that for me personally, to be devoted to Him and not to a denomination.
I know that the main reason that you wrote this piece, was not to attack Biblically sound church's, but that is what you've ended up doing, by making your argument soooo broad and far reaching. So please, everyone who reads this, turn to mirror around and look at your own heart through the un-altering Word of God and focus on the brothers and sisters nearest to you and if God then calls you to reach out further, then obey Him and do it, but otherwise, this infighting about styles and cultural relevance must stop! As it has moved on from simple doctrinal issues and has ended up very broad, far reaching, and is getting personal. And it's not only you Stefan, I have been guilty of it, so have the men in my Bible Study, my family, my friends, and pastors that I highly respect, even they are starting to get out of hand with this situation and this is exactly what satan wants, to disrupt us from our real purpose, to live Glorifying God and presenting the perishing world with the Gospel of Truth.

I mean this in love and as my little bit, by the Lord Jesus and His Holy Spirit, to help us all to refocus on the goal, instead of the view along the way which is dirty and passing away,

Jonathan

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

You raise a whole host of issues that my little post was not intended to address, and you seem to have misunderstood several points I was trying to make.

Due to the length of your comment, I cannot possibly address every comment in full, but instead I will gather up the main emphases of your comment and respond accordingly.

Before I do so, however, let me get three important things out of the way.

First, I would recommend you read Hart and Muether's book on worship (With Reverence and Awe), as well as Michael Horton's book on the same subject (A Better Way). Those two books, especially Hart and Muether, will give you a more complete picture of my convictions, especially in terms of the fundamental principles that must govern and guide the church's worship.

Second, I think it would be helpful if you re-read my post and see how I’ve defined the culture and the world. I’m not defining it in terms of all the inhabitants of the world, or in terms of the physical sphere or earth itself. I’ve defined it in ethical terms, as that way of life or world-system that is anti-God and anti-Christ. Yes, the church should be taking the gospel into the world, to the nations, as God’s wise providence permits; but, no, the church should not become like the world in order to do so. The world’s ways are not God’s ways.

Third, your rebuke of me is unfounded and over the top, at several levels. In the future, ask questions first, rebuke later. Though I am not above reproach, you ought to take seriously the warnings in Scripture about speaking precipitously (read Proverbs). In fact, your rebuke is based upon some fundamental misunderstandings of me, several misreadings of Scripture, and some wide-ranging assumptions. Most significant, you presume that I am not a man of biblical conviction (or at least that comes through in your comment, intended or otherwise). If that is your assumption, you are mistaken. The language of “self-pride” and “arrogance” (though very real possibilities as one who is simul iustus et peccator) is highly charged, and should be reserved for those you know to be acting in such a way. Your lumping me in with the Pharisees and Roman Catholicism is unjustified, as their fault lie in extra-biblical impositions upon the people of God; the biblical and Reformed faith I confess does just the opposite, heralding such biblical truths as the sufficiency of Scripture, the liberty of conscience, and (born of these two) the regulative principle of worship. Thus, my post is born of biblical conviction (not extra-biblical, man-made commandments) and is therefore ultimately intending to see God glorified in the church in the way he has ordained for himself to be glorified.

With all that said, let me address a few of the particular issues you raised.

First, evangelism. The church’s mission, I hope you will agree, is summarized in our Lord’s words shortly before his ascension (i.e., the so-called great commission in Matt 28:18-20). But the question that is at stake, particularly as it relates to the culture-at-large is this: does Jesus tell us how to fulfill this commission? Or, as we go, do we make disciples in any way that we so choose, becoming just like the world in order to reach the world? Jesus tells us what to do: make disciples among the nations. But he also tells us how to do it: the preaching of his Word and the administration of the sacraments (i.e., teaching and baptizing). Hence, this is an official or ecclesiastical mandate. It isn’t fulfilled by individuals within the church, but by the church as she engages in her corporate activity from Sunday to Sunday. Missionary activity, planting churches, and existing as the church, necessarily entails evangelism at an official, ecclesiastical level. [And the word ‘go’ or ‘going’ is a participle, which assumes that the church is, in fact, located in and among the various nations, or cultures, where the Lord of the church has been pleased to send her.] My point, then, is this: preaching and baptizing are, in themselves, counter-cultural. To fallen men, they are foolish; but they are, in fact, the wisdom of God. These are the divinely ordained means of grace, which God has promised to bless. If we get rid of these, or alter them, for any reason (including appealing to the culture) then we cannot possibly fulfill the great commission. Even in terms of the content of our preaching, we aren’t required to give the men, women, boys, and girls of this fallen world what they want; we must preach the law and the gospel, so that God, by his Spirit, might convict them of sin and bring them to the saving knowledge of Christ. You quoted Romans 10:6-7, but what about what Paul says in the remainder of that passage? Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ – and the word of Christ, he says, is delivered by gospel preachers who are sent to preach Christ (see vv 8-17).

It is thus my calling as a minister of the gospel to preach the Word and administer the sacraments. You assume that Eph 4:11-12, for example, makes me into one who equips the saints for the real work of evangelism and ministry. That is a modern misreading of Eph 4. The ascended Christ has given four offices (or five, if you split pastor and teacher) for a three-fold purpose: for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ. Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers – officers gifted by Christ, recognized by the church – are not given so as to equip others for the work of the ministry (including evangelism), but they are given to do that work themselves. And from elsewhere in the NT we discover that it is, again, the ministry (i.e., service) of Word and sacrament (see esp. the Pastoral Epistles, 2 Cor 4, Rom 10:8-17). This means that your questions regarding whether or not I am equipping the saints for evangelism is now on a totally different footing. You should have asked: am I preaching the gospel? Am I being faithful to my calling to preach the whole counsel of God as revealed in Jesus Christ? Am I guarding the sheep that Christ has committed to my charge, instructing them in truth and informing them of error?

Now, you may be thinking that I am taking away any responsibility from the people of God in evangelism. Not so. While Matt 28:18-20 isn’t given to church members individually, Col 4:5-6 and 1 Peter 3:15-16 have been given to each and every member of Christ’s church. Our lives must bear witness to the grace of God, and so must our lips, as we have occasion in the good and wise and sovereign providence of God. Your brother is a fine example of someone who takes the time to speak of Christ and of true hope to many who would not otherwise hear such truths. But is the faithful father who catechizes his children nightly and brings them to the Lord’s house weekly doing any less? No.

So, evangelism takes place in two related ways: officially, in the church’s proclamation, and, as a by-product, personally, as Christ’s people have occasion to speak of our Lord and Savior. And while often we encounter people who are embedded in a particular culture, the gospel we bring them transcends any and all human culture. In fact, if we do not preach the one, true gospel without any cultural additions or subtractions, we will do the lost no good. The message cannot be separated from the medium. So, I would say this: I’m not shutting anyone out of the church, or keeping them from hearing the gospel. In fact, I would be doing so if I made the gospel look and sound just like the philosophies of the fallen world in which they already live. I’d be preaching a mess of cultural folly, instead of Christ as the wisdom of God. Conscience will not permit me to do anything less than preach the gospel in an unapologetic, unaccommodating manner.

And this points to the second and bigger issue of worship and cultural relevance. Much of what you’ve said assumes that there are no biblical principles governing our worship, and that one man’s preference is just as good as the next man’s preference. You’re also assuming that style is neutral. You’ve also presumed that there is no difference between the old covenant sanctions regarding worship and those of the new covenant. My friend, your assumptions are wrong.

Hebrews 12 demands that we worship the God who is a consuming fire “with reverence and awe” (i.e., the reverential principle). The second and third commandment necessitate that we worship God only in the way he commands, neither adding nor subtracting from the elements of worship (i.e., the regulative principle). Much of the evangelical world follows the normative principle (i.e., if God hasn’t forbidden it, it’s ok), or the inventive principle (i.e., anything goes). Those just aren’t sustainable positions from the Scriptures. Furthermore, you cite examples from the complex and ceremonial worship of the temple (or tabernacle) to suggest that present-day evangelical worship with its choirs, ensembles of musicians, etc. fits the biblical mold, but I would say two things: (1) John 4:20-24 pointedly tells us that new covenant worship is simple and spiritual, in comparison to this complex system of the old (Hebrews 12 confirms this, though it also reminds us that we worship one and the same God); and thus, (2) nothing in these OT passages themselves suggest that temple worship should be viewed as that which regulates the manner (or style) of NT worship. In fact, what regulates worship, first and foremost, is who God is. John 4 and Hebrews 12 both make that point rather forcefully. We worship God in spirit and in truth, because God himself is Spirit. We worship God with reverence and awe because our God is a consuming fire. Reformed Christianity has thus argued that worship must be serious, simple, and biblically sound. Worship style, then, isn’t neutral, but should always be born of a consideration of who God is, of what worship is (i.e., meeting with that God), and of what God requires of us in worship. Thus, the way we worship God ought never to be guided by the culture in which we live (or by any past culture). That goes for me, too. We sing hymns and psalms in the way we do because of divine precept and the divine perfections. We don’t choose to use a piano because we are stuck in pre-1970’s traditionalism, but because we believe that whatever instruments one uses should only be used to provide some help in singing the praises of the one true and living God. We eschew the big-band worship of many churches because they aren’t accompanying, they are entertaining. [As an aside, you accuse me of knowing nothing about evangelical churches because I was unfamiliar with when the Supper was observed in a few evangelical churches. That is a leap of logic. I am very familiar with the theology and practice that governs the worship of evangelical and emergent-emerging-missional churches. Your example has no bearing on that point.]

True worship – in terms of its elements and its attitudes – must be universal; it must transcend culture if it is going to be relevant in any way to both the unreached and the reached. We must do what God commands and how God commands it be done, whether I live in Kirkland or in Timbuktu. Thus, we are never talking about preferences, whether they are born of my own spiritual blindness or that of the surrounding culture. When it comes to worship it is always a matter of divine precept and biblical principles. And, frankly, I remain unconvinced (and grieved by the fact) that the majority of evangelical and emergent-emerging-missional worship is far more concerned with appealing to the cultural impulses of fallen man.

The gospel demands change of us; it demands our conformity to Christ, and submission to his sovereign lordship. It doesn’t make me a schismatic, nor does it make me uninterested in evangelism, to point out the ways in which our present generation is failing in that regard. In fact, one could argue that the shoe is on the other foot. When we pretend that Christianity is this nice, fuzzy, entertaining religion, and that the God we worship is more interested in our happiness than in his glory, we’re not confronting this lost world with the holiness and majesty of the God whom they have offended and before whom they will one day stand. David Wells speaks of this as God’s weightlessness (in his indictment of modern evangelism – his books are well worth reading, especially God in the Wasteland). Moreover, if our worship is not filled with the simple proclamation of God’s promises in Christ, then we will have failed to be evangelistic in any sense at all.

Don’t get me wrong. I don’t pretend to be perfect; nor do I pretend that Trinity is the only true church of Christ (those, too, are unfounded assumptions). Nevertheless, my conscience is bound to the Word of God; like Luther, here I stand, and I can do no other. That hardly makes me schismatic; that hardly makes me Satan’s tool for the fracturing of the church (again, I think quite the opposite is the case). I eagerly pray that the church would be united in its mission; but for me to point out the obvious (that it isn’t) and to point out some reasons why I think that is the case (cultural accommodation) is hardly out of line, especially for a minister of the gospel who will give an account for such things on the last day.

There is much more to be said, but not enough time in which to say it.

Respectfully yours,
Stefan

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

Another comment seems fitting.

It might help to re-read my post, bearing in mind that I am speaking of the church in her corporate capacity.

I am not suggesting that individual Christians forsake the world and their responsibilities in it. In fact, if you're around to hear my preaching from 1 Peter 2:11ff. you see that is the furtherst thing from my mind.

Stefan

C. J. Olsen said...

Jonathan,

I found this blog posting recently and find your comments and observations disturbing to say the least and indicative of the modern day wishy washy evangelical church today. You are making some pretty big leaps throughout and am curious if you see any relationship to what man passes off for worship today and what we find in Lev 10:1? This "fighting about "style"" that you refer to is a very big deal and as you profess faith in Jesus Christ I urge you to reconsider this weighty issue.

God didn't take worship lightly in Lev 10:1 lightly and neither should we. As a matter of fact God's holiness is at stake here. He devoured Nadab and Abihu with fire when their worship was not what He prescribed. Was God too harsh? Devoured:

I see this as the primary reason why the church has lost much ground today. Man has taken too much liberty when it comes to God and "worship style." You conclude that because we have a great concern for this that we are parrots, isolationists, lazy, and judgmental.

So I ask you, where do YOU draw the line? Is worship relative? Anything goes? Was it relative to God? Should we have whatever pleases the fancy of the "worship team" this year or whatever the newest method of the day is? Is church just about feeling good and pleasing the senses or is it about the worship of God in a manner that He has prescribed? Without being too crass, maybe we should have a men and a women on the stage for worship during extremely intimate moments since this is obviously construed as such a portrait of Christ and the church? Does that sound just a little bit over board? Would you be uncomfortable with this is if this happened in your church? If it does what basis do you have for this judgment? Again I ask you, where do we draw the line? The answer is that you can't draw a line because it is not man's place to make this line, it is God's place like it or not. This rails against pride in the extreme.

"But I dare not be so bold and on dangerous ground, as to spread words that declare God's chosen instruments to be outside of His good graces, based upon the fact that they are more culturally relevant then yours or my particular gatherings of believers. This is to call into question why any church besides your own even exists, and that is unacceptable to both God and to your brethren in Christ!"

I think this is only dangerous ground (as you proclaim) for those who do not understand this very simple truth. I have read your post and it sounds very frustrated. We are called to preach Christ crucified and not Christ made relevant. Your relevancy is misplaced. The relevancy is the problem with man's heart and the answer for that problem. The problem is the same in every sinners heart. They are at enmity with God. The answer is the same. They need to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This dynamic transcends time and geographical location. A sinner is a sinner no matter if he is in the 1300's or in 2008.

Simply put, those churches who acquiesce to novelty have lost faith in the sufficiency of scripture and they have resorted to un-biblical means of worship. The heart must be biblically grounded because we know that the heart is deceitful above all things. We know we are easily led astray. A sinner needs to be confronted with the salt of the Word and not the latte and rock show of the week.

What is supposed to make us different from the world? Are we to be fashioned according tot his world? If we (Christians) look like the world, act like the world, listen to music which mimics the world, what really makes us different? Do we need to be edgy, hip, retro, and relevant to get the issue across?

"What does your local church do to reach the lost? Very simple question. ... The lost are in a "culture" and simply put, are you shutting them out for that reason?"

This question is very confrontational. I think we can already agree with who the lost are and where we can find them without the sarcasm. I know this is a hot topic for you by way of the length of your post. Godly worship is about glory to God alone. The problem is that the church has backed down from fighting this battle for too long. No one is shutting them out as you say. We are holding fast to sound, biblical, exegesis.

The blog entry below hits the nail on the head from a faithful pastor in regards to worship:

"Nowadays, people have strange notions of what a God-honoring Lord’s Day worship service is. Oftentimes they will say, “Oh, we need to worship in the Spirit.” This is an excellent start. But then they’ll go on to describe in the Spirit basically as not stuffy or traditional, recognizable by an atmosphere that rocks, is appealing to Joe Six-pack, attracts the youth, is fun, enjoyable, casual, non-threatening, and popular.

But consider the most detailed biblical description we have of a God-honoring Lord’s Day. It’s found in Revelation 1 where John enjoyed a genuine “in the Spirit” experience:

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet….And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands one like a son of man…And His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire…And in His right hand He held seven stars; and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man (Rev. 1;10-17).

You see, the Spirit’s presence in John’s Lord’s Day brought his soul into an atmosphere of awe-filled reverence for God. An evidence of the Spirit’s genuine (vs. counterfeit) presence is His placing spectacles on our eyes so that we, like Isaiah, see our Lord as Holy, Holy, Holy enthroned above our lowly and sinful souls (Isaiah 6:1-5).

Paul describes to the Corinthians what effects will be produced by the Spirit’s genuine presence in their worship services:

…and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you (1 Cor. 14:24-25)

But pragmatic and professional church marketing experts know that our post-modern culture holds a detestation for the sacred, and loves to carnivalize the hallowed. So they tell us to create fun-loving and enjoyable atmospheres in order that people will have a good time and come back. Such an approach may effectively bring many thrill seekers into the front door, but also certainly drives the genuine Holy Spirit out the back door.

Mark Chanski"

"It should be seen as appropriate that God’s people are to be ordered by God’s rules. It should be seen as appropriate that worship, that which shows reverence, piety, love, desire, and joy in God, be structured and ordered according to God’s word and His biblical principles lying therein. Worship for the Christian should be an expression of God’s heart back to God. We ought to reflect back to God how wonderful and most blessed He is. It is impossible to worship God by human invention. It is impossible to worship God by human ingenuity. It is impossible to worship God in an atmosphere that has not been structured and ordered by God and His word. The Regulative Principle which is found in the Bible and expressed clearly in its climactic expression by the Puritans should not be placed by the way side because we and our contemporary culture are more fascinated and captivated by being entertained rather than by worshipping God." ~Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

Please read this piece by McMahon and see if you are still of the same thinking:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonRegulativePrinciple.htm

I urge you to reconsider this issue of God's holiness in light of scripture. I will leave you with these links for your reading:

http://members.aol.com/RSICHURCH/reg2.html

http://www.reformedprescambridge.com/articles/ICRC_RPW_Final.pdf

http://www.oldpathspublications.org/worship.html

http://www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?418

Stefan said...

Christian,

Thanks for the links.

Good to see you here.

On the main, you are right. The issue at stake here is who God is. Is he the holy God, before whom we must bow, and to whom we may come only through the blood and satisfaction of Christ? If he is, then what we do and how we do it must conform to his holy Word.

We will worship the God who made us in his image, or will we worship a god we make in our image. That is the issue.

Stefan

Jonathan said...

By God's grace, me a debased and wicked to the core sinner, has been saved and He has regenerated my heart, plucked me from the fire and has His arms open wide, ready to receive me either when I die or when Christ returns.

God is a merciful and wonderful God, full of just wrath against sin, but equally full of love and mercy for His elect in Jesus Christ.

I praise Him for the Salvation that He has so undeservedly shown me, and according to you guys, He has done the same for you.
Give Him glory and honor and praise, lifting up your voices, but not stopping there, but also lift up your hearts and pray diligently always, for the day will soon come, when we will all be with Him in Glory, and thus no more prayers in this life can be sent up to Him, for the lost folks amongst us, nor for the saints having to endure harsh and ill treatment at the hands of wicked men.

Let's focus on our Holy God, and not continue to bicker with futile words, but join in Holy brotherhood in Christ Jesus our Lord, and submit to Him as slaves and do not harm each other any more with words.

I do ask you, Stefan and CJ, for forgiveness for even expounding upon an issue of which we shall never in this sinfilled world, agree with each other on, and that is why it is SOOO wonderful that God's Son, Jesus Christ, has covered and can cover ALL sin that has ever or ever will be in my heart, in your heart Stefan and in your heart CJ.
I should never have been a part of this discussion as it neither has obviously not helped to build up you guys in Christ and though that was my intent, it failed and so I am ending my involvement in it right here and hoping that by His grace, we will all continue to grow in our knowledge of Him and obey His will, which to my shame, does not include futile discussions that do nothing to bring together His body in Holy unity. Such unity and agreement will have to wait until He perfects myself, and you Stefan and you CJ, in His presence in Glory. So until then, please accept my apologies for not helping my fellow brethren and I will be praying for you guys as well as myself.

Worship Him in Truth and if I do not speak nor see you two again in this wicked and fallen world, then I look forward to that time, which is VERY soon, when you guys and myself, will worship Him in perfect unity and Truth and love with our entire eternal focus being upon Him and Him alone!

God Bless you two, please focus on Him and upon how you can best honor His Holy Name before your fellow brethren and before a lost world that He has placed us into for His name to be shared with many, that a few might be saved,

Jonathan

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

I understand.

You are certainly still welcome to join us at Trinity as you have occassion.

Stefan

C. J. Olsen said...

J. ,

Absolutely ditto for our church in Portland as well...should you be passing through.

Christian

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

As I said previously, I understand the sentiment of your final comment, and I understand that you do not want to engage any further in this discussion.

With that said, I would ask you to think about one important thing: the unity of the church and the universality of worship.

YOu said that God's will "does not include futile discussions that do nothing to bring together His body in Holy unity."

That statement can be taken in a number of ways. One possibility is that this particular discussion is futile because it is clear we disagree. Another possibility is that discussions on the issue of worship/evangelism/culture are futile because they do nothing to unify the church.

If the first was your meaning, I will concede the point (though not entirely agreeing with it). If the second was your meaning, I could not disagree more.

Worship is the most important part of the church's (and the Christian's) calling. And worship ought to be the one place where the body of Christ is unified -- and not artificially, around our tastes and preferences, but biblically, theologically, liturgically, and doxologically, which is to say that we must be united around Christ and his holy will. The church is unified, then, only as it does what Christ commands in the very way that Christ commands.

In fact, that was my intent in writing this piece to begin with, and it is my intent when it comes to matters of worship. I labor as a minister of the Word to see our church united with the primitive, apostolic church, as well as with the historic church, when it comes to our worship; and what I find so distressing, so sad, in much of the church today is not only a completely different ethos, but also no desire to even think in those terms. It seems to me that much of the church yearns for the latest and greatest, the passing and the ephemeral, rather than the richest and purest. The unity of the church doesn't depend upon our finding the fewest possible doctrinal maxims to agree upon; it depends upon the church acting like the church, which means believing and practicing as Christ commands. Disunity in this passing age is inevitable; I'm not suggesting anything otherwise. Rather, I am suggesting that if we are going to strive for unity, we must heed, first and last, God's revealed will.

Let's face it, as sinners we don't want what God wants. That doesn't come naturally to us -- and it is my humble opinion that so much of the church today struggles to find its moorings because we are still asking the question, "has God said?"

My argument is that he has said, and he has clearly said, in his Word. And it is high time for the church to listen to his voice, and to follow him.

I'm not trying to egg you on to respond. I simply couldn't let your statement go without addressing what I believe to be a very vital issue.

Stefan

C. J. Olsen said...

Pastor Stefan ,

I think equally as vital is tracing where we have gone astray (ie. what has crept in under our noses) much akin to the frog in the bath water illustration.

RB churches are not immune to bad orthodoxy/orthopraxy and should be "inoculated" as necessary. I think of all of the heresies that I have studied and many if not most come from within the church.

Examining why this is the case is crucial.

I think of post-modernism, charismatic/pentecostal-ism, & roman catholicism as being key players.

Combine these three "biggies" with pride and you have fertile ground for some unbiblical/extrabiblical situations.

I am sure someone out there has looked at these influences in aggregate and how they have affected the visible church.

Stefan said...

Christian,

Good point.

We might remember, however, that the three biggies you mention did not spring up in a philosophical, theological, or liturgical vacuum.

We need really to understand, then, not only the history of the church, but the history of worship (Reformed and otherwise), and how our worship has been shaped by these and various other influences -- either in accepting certain things, or in reaction to others.

A good starting point as any is the work of Hughes Oliphant Old, especially his Patristic Roots of Reformed Worship.

Anyone else have any suggestions on this particular point?

Stefan

Unknown said...

Yes much can be said regarding the Regulative vs Normative Principles, and it was my intention to remain silent knowing the nature of such debate, but you have asked if anyone else would speak, so I shall.

However I would choose to engage this debate not with more debate but rather with a question of what one is doing rather than on the confident assertion of what one is not doing which always puffs up.

Let us discuss the administering of the sacrament of the Lords Table, Pastor Stefan from your own lips you have taught that communion (the breaking of bread) was a regular part of the gathering of believers, and prescribed in scripture to be done every time we come together, being the model given us by the apostolic church. I ask then sir why do you not do it but once a month?

My challenge comes by way of your example regarding the lack of partaking of the Lord’s Table at every instance of public worship. How when you profess to be a church that holds to the regulative principle partake of Communion only once a month? How can your own congregations escape criticism when you arbitrarily choose to exclude the Lord’s Table from the great majority of your meetings for worship?

You do recognized the other elements of worship (say, preaching God’s Word, prayer, or reading Scripture) however regarding then the Lords Table your own congregation would come under serious criticism when judged by your own court.

Can you explain this?

Please be sure on the fact it is not my intention to judge you or the church the Lord has placed you as a shepherd, I only ask that you also investigate yourself with the vigor you have applied to others.

Your Brother in Christ,
David

Stefan said...

David,

It seems as though you've misunderstood me at several levels.

First, my question for input was not on this subject on the whole, but the question was rather limited in scope. I was asking if anyone knew of any books or research dealing with the influences of postmodernism, pentecostalism, and/or Roman Catholicism on evangelical or Reformed worship today. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Second, the question of my making confident assertions of what I am not doing is irrelevant. I haven't made any such assertions. Did I ever say I was immune from any of the criticism I was making? Did I ever say I was above criticism entirely. No. Believe me, every week I check what I do as a minister against the word of God. I do investigate myself with much vigor -- I just don't publish it for everyone to read. Sometimes in our worship we haven't fully realized the practical implications of our theology of worship. It is one of the most humbling of all my responsibilities to be constantly, and vigoursly, thinking in such terms.

Third, I'm not sure if you and your brother are aware of how your speech comes across. It has been very hard for me to discern at times, especially when the statements made are highly personal and appear incendiary, as if you really want to prove just how contradictory or inconsistent I really am. I try to keep my points on this blog rather theological in nature, and not so much personal (though persons do theology, so the distinction isn't that big). The personal nature of your challenges might best be reserved for another time; or they might best be phrased as honest questions (again, at another time where intentions are easier to discern). I may be mistaken, but this is the way it has come across to me.

Fourth, your challenge regarding the Lord's Supper misses an important distinction regarding the regulative principle of worship. The regulative principle pertains to what we do. Do we have liturgical dance or do we observe the Lord's Supper? The regulative principle itself does not answer the question of the frequency of the Supper, but rather it restricts itself to what elements must be present in the worship of God.

With that said, it is important to draw a distinction between the individual conscience of the minister and the collective conscience of a church (or even its eldership). Calvin was convinced that the Supper should be observed weekly, but the Genevan council thought otherwise. He submitted to their authority, but did not change his convictions. If Trinity never observes the Supper weekly, I will be able to live with that, because my individual conscience is not the collective conscience of the church and its officers (the latter being appointed by Christ to rule ministerially together, not individually). I am under the authority of my co-pastor who is yet unconvinced of my views. Do I run rough-shod over him? I think the answer to that question is clear.

Also, part of the reason I am presently preaching on the subject of the Lord's Supper, and its place in the worship of the church, is to instruct our people, so that if and when we do reform our worship in that area, it doesn't come as a surprise, and I've provided a biblical and theological framework for this practice. On some things, reform must happen overnight; on other things change often comes slowly, and with much discretion. I have chosen the latter road, knowing where my fellow elder stands, and where the congregation currently stands.

So I haven't arbitrarily excluded anything from our worship services. I have attempted to act self-consciously according to the principle of wisdom.

I certainly must be judged according to biblical and confessional standards (which I confess from the heart), but there are biblical and practical reasons for my chosen course of action; next time you might ask the question in a different way, so that those who come across this blog aren't convinced that everything I do is tinged with hyprocisy or a lack of integrity.

Maybe the three of us (or if Jonathan isn't interested, just the two of us) should get together and speak in person. Feel free to email me, and let me know if you're interested.

Stefan

Jonathan said...

Jesus said:

The time is coming, and has now come, when God seeks worshippers who worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

I want to apologize to you again Stefan, I did not mean to cause you any grief that is not a grief that God has sent to you, via this vessel, that He seeks us and He desires that we worship Him in the Spirit and in Truth.
The Holy Spirit, who indwells every believer, must worship Him in Truth and not within a man made box.
I know that you may not understand this, but the Bible does not declare a certain instrument off limits, nor a particular song style or rythm, sung to Him in absolute truthful worship of Him.
I know that many of the books you've read may disagree with this fact, but I did not come up with it and I plead with you Stefan to put down all the theology books and take a break from the thoughts of man, and just take some time, be alone with the Lord and His Word, and ask Him to speak to you on this issue of restrictive worship.
I know that you are a pastor and fact is, you have about 1,000 more books of knowledge then I do, so in a sophisticated and "educated" discussion, I will lose, but it is not about my winning or losing, it is about the worship of the One True God from my heart, from your heart Stefan.
The Holy Spirit does not show up at Trinity RBC because you guys have a single piano and sing Psalters. Likewise, He does not show up at Crossroads Bible Church because they have 2 electric guitars. The Holy Spirit IS everywhere you and I are. We are in a continual state of worship, whether we realize it or not and thus we sin allot because of not worshiping Him in Truth at all times, and worship does not start and stop with the meeting together of believers, nor with a particular form of believers.
God our Father only cares about my heart, He only cares about your heart and His presence and His blessing does not stop when a worshiper feels lead to Sing to Him a new song of praise to His Glory.
When I walked into Trinity, Christ was not honored because I sang a Psalter. Anyone can sing a Psalter. Christ was honored when I sang a Psalter to Him, which I must jokingly say was quite hard for me as I am not a higher notes guy, hehe. Likewise, Christ is not honored when you sing a Psalter to Him while at that very moment, I am singing a Hymn or a New Song to Him across town and either of us declare the other to not be in true fellowship with our God. He is honored and glorified when you sing your Psalter to Him in Truth from your heart, and He is honored and glorified when I across town sing to Him from my heart and in Truth the songs which the Holy Spirit allows me to sing to Him, along with Psalms and Hymns.

The whole reason that I even sent the original post to you, was because I see that you've unwittingly fallen into a Spiritual box that constrains your whole idea of worshiping an infinite God to a few sets of rules and regulations, where anything outside of your particular box, is not Christ honoring, is not true worship, is not how God receives true worship.
That is why I made the RCC and Pharisee comparison, which I now see was not the right way to compare things. Simply put, they set up a set of rules and regulations on how God is to be worshiped, and God condemned them for it! As He said that they did Not worship Him in Truth, but that they were merely externally acknowledging Him and He hates that, He wants from your heart worship!
I know that you do not do so externally, I am simply trying to show you where rules that are absolutely unBiblical eventually lead people to. Whether you think they are Biblical or not is irrelevant, as they are not Biblical.

God was glorified when the thief on the cross next to Jesus repented and accepted Christ as Lord and sin bearer. That thief didn't sing a Psalter, nor a Hymn, nor a new song, he writhed in pain while trusted in the Lord hanging next to Him and is now in Glory singing praises to our Father forever and ever and I am certain that those songs are sung with many styles, and soon my brother Stefan, we will be along side that thief praising our Heavenly Father too and it shall never end.

The Lord says that He will give each of us an instrument in Heaven. Do you truly believe that this means that each one of us will have a piano? Will everyone have a trumpet? Will everyone have a banjo or a flute?
I pray for you Stefan that what I am saying is not harming you, but is being received as I am in Truth trying to tell you that God never placed such a restriction upon our worship of Him!
God does not look at the songs and the musical instruments in your church and say to Himself, "Those are my worshipers because they sing songs from Scripture and use a piano." And then look across town and to see my gathering of believers and say "They sang my Psalms and Hymns, but they used a guitar and a drum, thus I will reject their worship, though it comes from their heart, I will reject it based upon the instrument they chose to praise me with."
Stefan, that does NOT come from God!

Stefan, God takes very, very, very seriously the worship that He receives!! Do not get me wrong, I agree with you on that!! Wholeheartedly! With that said, do you know how He takes it seriously? By way of the praisers' heart!
If I am singing a Psalter to Him, He is utterly un-glorified if I am singing with my lips, devoid of a heart and spirit of worship for who He is!

Also, worship is not just singing, it is praying, preaching, meditating upon Him, fasting, etc.
Thus, it cannot be said that God honors the worship of a congregation if they have a piano. A piano is utterly irrelevant to God! He wants true worshipers, who love Him and obey Him, whether they have a piano, an electric guitar, an Accordian, a flute, a saxophone, a harp, a drum or just their own voice.
Christ wants YOU Stefan. Christ wants your heart. Christ wants your obedience. Christ wants you to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and if you bring a Psalter and one instrument to do so, He is glorified in that as well, however, He just wants Your Heartfelt Worship of Him and Him alone, in Spirit and in Truth whether you are alone or with an orchestra or a small band.

But please allow me to gently warn you, if you come to God and sing a Psalter but reject the worshiper who chooses to sing a Psalter with a guitar, then you have chosen a man made object over God's Glory.
You may not understand that, but it is a fact! God wants that worshiper too, not just you because you choose to worship Him according to stricter guidelines.
God wants the hearts and souls of man, whether they worship like you Stefan, or whether they worship like some guy in Russia or some guy in Downtown Seattle, IF one's heart is set upon the Lord, the song He sings are to the Lord in Spirit and in Truth, God utterly accepts that man's praise!

I truly feel that too much book learning is detrimental to the health of a Christian, if we'd all spend at least an equal amount of time In His Word as we do studying theology, reading man's expounding on His Word, blogging, driving a car, etc. I think, no I know, we'd all be much better off.

I realize that I may have come across harsh to you in my original blog, and I never meant to question your integrity nor your heart for the Lord, as I am convinced by everything I know about you, through our meeting face to face, thru your preaching, through your prayers, and through your blog, that you DO love the Lord and that your #1 priority is to be true to God's Word.
I commend that and I have prayed and will continue to pray that the Lord keep you and grow you more in Him each day.
With that said, this still does not allow for you nor me, to add to the original meaning or intent of Scripture!
You are a fallen man full of sin, and I am a fallen man and probably more filled with sin, thus this makes us prime targets for satan! Stefan, you are a pastor, you shepherd a flock, God has you in this position for His Glory and I commend your shepherding them as best you know how, as best you've learned and as the Holy Spirit has lead you.
I do not have a thing against you nor your style of church gathering.
What I do have a problem with, and I am certain that God also has a problem with, and that is an attitude or shall I say a belief structure, that condones your gatherings as God Honoring, yet does not do the same for your brethren in Christ.
A key passage on this is in Romans. I promise that I am almost done, so bear with me please, and actually read this passage though I know you've read it many times before, however, before you do, please pray and ask for the Holy Spirit to speak to you through God's Word, as there may be something He is trying to show you Stefan.

Thus says the Word of the Lord:
Romans 14 (NKJV)
The Law of Liberty
1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written:
“ As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way.
The Law of Love
14 I know and am convinced by the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean of itself; but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let your good be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 Therefore let us pursue the things which make for peace and the things by which one may edify another. 20 Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are pure, but it is evil for the man who eats with offense. 21 It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. 22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

So in closing, I am not trying nor would I ever try to change what your conscience, by the power of the Holy Spirit, allows you to do while worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth.
And by the passage above and many, many others, I am asking you to seek out the True meaning of worship, as it is infinite and we are not, therefore, none of us will truly grasp worship of an infinite God until we are in His presence in Glory, however, this does not mean that we are unable to worship Him in Truth now.
If your conscience and your faith allows you to but sing Psalms an Hymns, devoid of various musical instruments and devoid of other Christ honoring songs, then by all means, praise Him with all you've got Stefan. To God be the Glory!
But if the Holy Spirit, allows for another true follower of Christ, who by the way is your brother in Christ too, if He allows him to worship with an instrument and in Christ honoring songs, along with Hymns and Psalms, then you would be hurting your brother in Christ, and thus harming Christ's body literally, to declare that brother is either no brother at all, or a brother worshiping God falsely, or a brother living in sin.

What God thru His Divine sovereign will, has allowed you to do to worship Him, is NOT a law for worship for all men, and to place such a restriction upon all men for how He has lead you, is a sin Stefan. And it would be a sin for me to tell you that my church's gathering is Christ Honoring and your's is not because it is restricted to a certain understanding of His Word. We'd both be wrong to declare God Honoring Worship, not such, just because our own conscience does not allow it for ourselves.
I know your intentions are good and your only priority is God's Glory, and that is a Holy direction, but do not overstep your freedom in Christ and imply that the rest of mankind is not worshiping the One True God unless they do it according to your structure, however Biblical it might seem to you.
I know it's not YOUR style, it is a reformed or whatever thing, the point is, Scripture allows us freedom according to the Holy Spirit by way of our conscience, to express Joy and Admiration and Love and Glory and Honor to the King of Kings in a multitude of forms and styles.
If I sin or cause my brother to stumble, then I am guilty before God of harming Christ Himself, therefore, I do not bring a guitar to your church services and possibly impend upon the conscience of that particular gathering of saints, likewise, you'd be best advised, to focus your worship on Him in Spirit and in Truth, instead of critiquing various forms and styles that your conscience does not allow for you.

I say this in absolute love and a Spirit of unity for all of Christ's body of saints.

I am simply trying to, by God's Grace, bring some Christian's closer together to focus on why we are truly here, to Glorify God and to spread the Good News. We MUST stop bickering or even simply chatting on about styles and forms and theology! This divides His church and He detests the divider of His church! God wants us to be unified in Him, and knowing that we will all have slightly or sometimes more significantly verying opinions, God is our God, Jesus is our Salvation and the Holy Spirit has sealed each on of us. So please, let's move forward and discuss opinions, but not declare one another to be Out of Christ's Blessing.
I know that many church's are such, however, my church Stefan, which you whether knowingly or unknowingly in a way condemned by your original post, is NOT one of the condemned church's!
SOme of the folks in there I am sure are lost, just like some might be at your church, but that does not change my position nor that of ALL of my brothers around the world, position in Christ.

I hope this has better explained what I attempted to at first.

Your brother in Christ,

Jonathan

P.S. Yes, we should get together sometime. I think we can all grow in our knowledge of Him, with or without differences of opinion and interpretation.

Jonathan said...

CJ,

As your brother in Christ, I ask that you please try to keep Biblical references within context.
I know that my post made you upset and for that I have asked for your forgiveness. I am truly very sorry Christian.

You referenced Lev 10:1 ... If I may, that is utterly out of context with this whole discussion. God smote them because they had prideful and evil hearts! They were NOT worshiping Him in Truth and they were treating Him like something petty or indifferent. That is not what an electric guitar does in the face of God when used in Holy Worship!
An electric guitar wielded by Ozzy Osbourne, yes, that is arrogant against God and He will judge it! But my singing praises to God in Spirit and in Truth but in a style that your conscience does not necessarily allow for you yourself to partake in, does not offend God, in fact, God loves it when I worship Him in Truth, and for your sake, I sincerely hope that you worship Him in Truth and not only in a defined rules based way.

Secondly, I also had issue with your referencing some dude that wrote on worship and it being like John's worshipful experience in Revelation.
First of all Christian, that was a specific event in the life of one man (John) that has never happened before and never will happen again!
And do you know why he had such an experience? To write the Book of Revelation. That was God literally coming upon him to give Him Truth and to write it for all of Christ's future followers.
Therefore, I have a question. And I know this will come off crass but I do not know how else to ask it, so please understand I am asking you like I were in front of you and not mocking you.
When was the last time, during your worship service, that you turned around and saw Christ standing right before you?
When was the last time you heard God audibly speak to you Revelation and take you to Heaven to see future events?

I do not mean to say that Christ is not present through the Holy Spirit when you or I worship, but come on, if that is what the guy meant, then he is very mistaken!
This is what charismatics often fall into, a "feeling" like a "whooosh" or a "presence" of God. THAT IS NOT WORSHIP! But do I say all charismatics are unsaved? Nope.

You worship God for His Glory and do not try to compare a form of worship today, with a revelation from God to a man He designated to write some of Scripture.

I do not know if I am taking your words out of context, but if that is what was meant by that, then get me brother, that man is dead wrong!
I don't care how many theological degrees he has! God wrote Scripture that any man can understand and be saved and live according to His Word.
I really get tired of the reading of man's thoughts, I get tired of soooo much theology it could drown us all, I get tired of an endless supply of man written opinions and insights into God's Word.
Don't get me wrong, it is not a bad thing to read theology and what not, but my point is, no man is perfect, so why would anyone put so much emphasis and time into the writings of a sinner like you or me?
Read God's Word.
Are we so educated that we are above reading His Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to move us to a new understanding? Do we really need a laundry list of male authors and the history of a single word to show us what God's Word already says if we just read it in Truth and meditate upon it?
Again, books by men are not the problem, the problem is where our emphasis and the majority of our time is spent.
If God needed to add anything to Scripture, He'd have added it, and if God felt that 10,000 theology books by various writers over the last 2 millenia were necessary, then answer me why only a handful of texts are even in existence, yet God's Word still stands? Because man's words never hold up to His Word, not even the best of Luthers or Calvins, they are still not superior to Scripture!
I am not judging book study, I am saying to focus your main attention on what He already wrote, instead of what some fallen man has interpreted and Trust in His Holy Spirit to guide you through His eternal inerrant Word.

God thinks your form of worship is nothing more then clanging and noise, IF your heart is not in the right place! God desires and will only accept geniune worship from the heart of a regenerate believer, whether he is worshiping Him driving down the road listening to Max McClean read from Hebrews, or your local church's recording of a Psalms being sung to no musical instruments, or my church worshiping through Psalms with 2 guitars and a drum set.

Please keep the Scripture in context.
I never meant any harm nor did I mean to divide God's now Holy Elect.
As I said, though I said it poorly, I was and am trying to bring together some of the members of Christ's body, and have us focus on His Glory and spreading the Good News, devoid of personal opinions getting in the way of God's Will for all His people on this earth.

Said in love and I pray received in love.

Your brother in Christ,

Jonathan

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

I won't make this lengthy, because length will do no good.

I think you have a fundamentally different view of biblical interpretation, biblical worship, and the person and work of the Holy Spirit than I do (and I think that is only scratching the surface, to be completely honest).

I don't say that to put you off, but just to make you aware of the fact that my convictions won't allow me to do so many of the things you are asking me to do. And, so we're clear, those are biblical convictions that are not only in line with much of historic Reformed Christianity (so they are not novel), but are the result of much study and much prayer.

Stefan

Jonathan said...

Stefan,

I wholeheartedly agree. It is good that we can agree to disagree and know that Christ accepts imperfect saints. Thankfully the Lord knows that I am imperfect and very far from being mature in Christ. Wow, I cannot wait to be in His presence and finally be off with this sinful flesh and nature of mine!!!
This is one reason why I look forward to aging in this life as well, because as time goes by, I shall have studied and prayed more (laws of time and space, hehehe), thus by God's Grace resulting in a better, more mature, understanding of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
I do not understand nearly as much as you do Stefan, I admit, but what I do understand thus my convictions, I am 150% confident in.

Thank you for being so involved in your blog, it is appreciated by many people here, I do pray for not only you but for your congregation and your Dad (Pastor Don) even though I no longer plan on attending there. Ya'lls preaching is Biblical and that was great, and the congregation there was always nice to me and I enjoyed their company, however, my other church's are "Reformed" but a bit more free in Christ and also have Bible Studies, group get togethers additional to Sunday's, community clean up and evangelism opportunities with the backing of the church, and such and I am lead by the Holy Spirit to involve myself with these church's and grow along with them, helping to build up the newer and less mature believers and also to listen to and learn from the older and more mature believers then myself.

I will continue to pray for you and yours, as we are all members, though all imperfect members, we are all members nevertheless of Christ's Holy Body and we all need to be in constant prayer for our brethren in Christ. So please do pray for me when you remember and the Lord presses upon you to do so, if He does, hahaha, and if you think about it, the Col 9 prayer would be great :-) ... As I do not want to be wrong, but I want to truly know Christ and my relationship to Him! ... I desire to know Him fully :-)

Your (imperfect) brother in Christ,

Jonathan
P.S. Hehe, I can't even write a simple note short! Hahaha, my brother is always like "dude, you gotta learn to shorten your messages." So sorry for the length of ALL my posts, I will work on shortening my train of thought :-D

C. J. Olsen said...

I apologize for addressing two people in the same post, which is probably a big no-no in "net-iquette."

David

"However I would choose to engage this debate not with more debate but rather with a question of what one is doing rather than on the confident assertion of what one is not doing which always puffs up."

This is an interesting comment that you made. From my perspective I see both what we do and what we don't do as grounds for the "puffing up" to take
place. I am not sure if I understand the point you are trying to make here. Maybe you could clarify it for me. Why do you see one as more dangerous than the other?


Jonathan

"God our Father only cares about my heart, He only cares about your heart and His presence and His blessing does not stop when a worshiper feels lead to Sing to Him a new song of praise to His Glory."

I think it is wise that we explicitly state that our feelings/emotions must be biblically informed. There is not a disconnect between the head and the heart. Understanding and believing go hand in hand and cannot be separated. Looking at the Hebrew and the Greek will help to relate these two together. "Saving knowledge" is a term that comes to mind--->Westminster Confession on the "Sum of Saving Knowledge."

"God was glorified when the thief on the cross next to Jesus repented and accepted Christ as Lord and sin bearer. That thief didn't sing a Psalter, nor a
Hymn, nor a new song, he writhed in pain while trusted in the Lord hanging next to Him and is now in Glory singing praises to our Father forever and ever and I am certain that those songs are sung with many styles, and soon my brother Stefan, we will be along side that thief praising our Heavenly
Father too and it shall never end."

I don't think this example is germane to the subject at hand. We are talking about regular worship specifically right? The thief on the cross illustration applies a little more strongly to a different question: What must one do to be saved? I am not convinced that you will hear about the thief on the cross in regards to discerning public worship.

When we look at what worship is and what it means we see:

Hebrew "shachah" {shaw-khaw'}

1) to bow down
1a) (Qal) to bow down
1b) (Hiphil) to depress (fig)
1c) (Hithpael)
1c1) to bow down, prostrate oneself
1c1a) before superior in homage
1c1b) before God in worship
1c1c) before false gods
1c1d) before angel

OR

Aramaic "cegid" {seg-eed'}
1) to prostrate oneself, do homage, worship
1a) (P'al) to do homage

OR

Greek
Fall down and worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully depending on the object

"I know that my post made you upset and for that I have asked for your forgiveness. I am truly very sorry Christian."

No, you did not upset me, so no worries. It is not necessary to ask for forgiveness. It is a good thing to wrestle with these things. I am not sure I will have a lot more time after this post to continue; not because of a lack of desire, but my time is a little limited. So I hope you understand.

"You referenced Lev 10:1 ... If I may, that is utterly out of context with this whole discussion. God smote them because they had prideful and evil hearts!

They were NOT worshiping Him in Truth and they were treating Him like something petty or indifferent."

This is where I think the disconnect might be. Examine the fact that they did what was not commanded. This is very relevant. God commanded them to worship in heart AND action and they were devoured. What was this strange fire? What made it strange? Did their hearts make it strange or did their actions make it strange? This word strange is the same word that is used in Exodus 30:9 "You shall offer no strange incense theron, nor burnt offering, nor meat offering; and ye shall pour no drink offering." The word strange is connected to action and not just heart. If their heart was right, but they gave a meat offering, drink offering, burnt offering, or strange incense would God sanction it? If it didn't matter what they "did" then why was God so precise in Exodus? Would He have accepted an incense offering other than the acacia wood as seen in Ex 30:1? Would Cedar have done the job? What God says matters. What He does matters. What He thinks matters.


When you look at the word strange in Hebrew we see it means:

1) to be strange, be a stranger
1a) (Qal) 1a1) to become estranged
1a2) strange, another, stranger, foreigner, an enemy (participle)
1a3) loathsome (of breath) (participle)
1a4) strange woman, prostitute, harlot (meton)
1b) (Niphal) to be estranged
1c) (Hophal) to be a stranger, be one alienated

My point is worship is not a relative activity. It is not dictated by feelings, but by God. Is the heart deceitful above all things as we see in Jeremiah? Can it be wrong or misinformed? If we feel like we are doing the right thing does this automatically mean that we are doing what is right in God's eyes? Can we be led astray by our feelings & emotions? We cannot pass off anything as worship so long as you feel that the heart is in the right place.

"Secondly, I also had issue with your referencing some dude that wrote on worship and it being like John's worshipful experience in Revelation.
First of all Christian, that was a specific event in the life of one man (John) that has never happened before and never will happen again!
And do you know why he had such an experience? To write the Book of Revelation. That was God literally coming upon him to give Him Truth and to
write it for all of Christ's future followers. Therefore, I have a question. And I know this will come off crass but I do not know how else to ask it, so please understand I am asking you like I were in front of you and not mocking you. When was the last time, during your worship service, that you
turned around and saw Christ standing right before you? When was the last time you heard God audibly speak to you Revelation and take you to Heaven to see future events?"

The dude you mention is a faithful man of God and a Pastor. You can find him on sermon audio if you like. The point you bring up is fair and not crass.
What he was alluding to was that Christ is not some "dude," "buddy," or "bro." He is the King of Kings right? If He is this, which I think we can agree upon, then why do we not esteem His honor and holiness as crucial, vital, and worth spending some time on? Did John run up to Him and give Him a hug? High five? A latte? Did he do a little dance? No, He trembled and fell to His face like the soldiers who came to take Christ away in John 17:6. This does portray something of the awe and reverence that we ought to have, but sadly we are lacking.

"I do not mean to say that Christ is not present through the Holy Spirit when you or I worship, but come on, if that is what the guy meant, then he is very
mistaken! This is what charismatics often fall into, a "feeling" like a "whooosh" or a "presence" of God. THAT IS NOT WORSHIP! But do I say all
charismatics are unsaved? Nope."

I am not saying people are unsaved if they have abandoned biblical worship or taken worship too lightly. I am saying that they have strayed. I am saying that they are like sheep that have been led astray. Are we or are we not easily led astray? Will there be times where men will not endure sound doctrine? (2Tim 4:3) Are we in these times right now? I think very much so...right in our very own churches.

I am saying that it is God who makes the rules and not men's fancy or yearning for cultural relativism. We are called to preach the gospel, not employ schemes. Is the word sufficient or is in not? Can it alone save or does it need our help? Do we need to be clever, edgy, and hip?

"I do not know if I am taking your words out of context, but if that is what was meant by that, then get me brother, that man is dead wrong!I don't care how many theological degrees he has! God wrote Scripture that any man can understand and be saved and live according to His Word. I really get tired of the reading of man's thoughts, I get tired of soooo much theology it could drown us all, I get tired of an endless supply of man written opinions and insights into God's Word. Don't get me wrong, it is not a bad thing to read theology and what not, but my point is, no man is perfect, so
why would anyone put so much emphasis and time into the writings of a sinner like you or me?"

So, by this you mean we can completely throw out the writings that faithful men have given? Calvin, Edwards, Spurgeon, etc...? Should we be ignorant of church history? I agree that no man is perfect, but collectively, the value of the theological sieve that has been woven, by God's grace, over time is
undeniable and extremely valuable.

"Read God's Word. Are we so educated that we are above reading His Word and allowing the Holy Spirit to move us to a new understanding?"

"New Understanding" is dangerous brother. "New understanding" is what gives us the "New Perspective on Paul." Is this the "new understanding" that you refer to? That we have gotten Paul wrong for all of these years and it is no longer faith alone? but faith plus something else? This "new understanding" is part of the problem with the church today. People by nature are not satisfied with re-tracing old paths...they want to put their mark
on history and come up with something from God's word that we have been missing all of this time. This is the height of arrogance. With this "new
understanding" we get the bible code. It gives rise to flat out heresy. Man's desire to be novel is insatiable. Again, 2Tim 4:16...they will not endure the sound doctrine; so where do you draw the line?

"Do we really need a laundry list of male authors and the history of a single word to show us what God's Word already says if we just read it in Truth and meditate upon it? Again, books by men are not the problem, the problem is where our emphasis and the majority of our time is spent."

The emphasis I am trying to point you to is God's holiness and the sufficiency of scripture. If those are inappropriate emphases then show me book and verse where these are belittled or denied and I will recant.

"If God needed to add anything to Scripture, He'd have added it, and if God felt that 10,000 theology books by various writers over the last 2 millenia
were necessary, then answer me why only a handful of texts are even in existence, yet God's Word still stands? Because man's words never hold up to His Word, not even the best of Luthers or Calvins, they are still not superior to Scripture! I am not judging book study, I am saying to focus your main attention on what He already wrote, instead of what some fallen man has interpreted..."

How do you interpret scripture to understand/discern what is right and what is not? How are you a Berean? What hermeneutic are you using? You
have to use some method to discern what you are reading don't you (other than whimsy, feeling, and preference)?

I pointed you to a great example of Nadab and Abihu and then you come back to me and said, "It was their heart, not what they did." You have no basis
for this observation if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. If the fire Nadab brought was strange then it only stands to reason that there is
something else that is not strange right? Did they offer what was not commanded because they thought or felt they knew better or did not take His word seriously?

I think the main issue might be that you are not comfortable with relinquishing to God ALL of the prerogative.

"Please keep the Scripture in context."

I think your idea of context is a little off...what is your definition of context? If by context you mean,

1 : the parts of a discourse that surround a word or passage and can throw light on its meaning
2 : the interrelated conditions in which something exists or occurs

then what is connected to, explicitly stated by, and implied by the passages that pertain and support the presence of biblical worship? Are you going to the Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew? Are you using historical background and context? Please tell me what your system of biblical interpretation is?

"I never meant any harm nor did I mean to divide God's now Holy Elect."

I don't think for a moment you are trying to be malicious. I do think that you are misunderstanding and in disbelief at the thought of what we do
matters. Weighing out our priorities, biblically is a very big deal.

I don't know if you read any of the links that I gave you, but there are some really good points that are made. I took the liberty of copying a few of these points from:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/PuritanWorship/McMahonRegulativePrinciple.htm

"The introduction of extra Biblical practices into worship inevitably tends to nullify and undermine God’s appointed worship. (Matthew 15:3,8,9; 2 Kings 16:10-18) 2 Kings 16:10-18 demonstrates that there is a way in which extra biblical practices inevitably, but often with great subtlety, displaced the appointed worship of God. King Ahaz in his apostasy from God and alliance with Assyria set his heart on having another alter like that which he saw in Damascus. He ordered the construction of such an altar and that it should be placed in the central place occupied by the old bronze altar. This altar displaced the old altar as the place upon which the regular morning and evening offerings shall be offered; but the old God appointed altar is, however,
not destroyed. Of course not! It is simply placed in a corner, verse 14. In a footnote to his decree on this matter, King Ahaz assures his more traditional
subjects that no insult was intended to the old God appointed altar. That decree concludes, "But the bronze altar shall be for me to acquire by", verse 15. Human innovators pay lip service to the God appointed elements of worship and simultaneously, in the very act, nullify them. How strikingly this illustrates the subtlety with which extra biblical practices have the tendency to displace the divine the appointed altars of biblical worship! This tendency is illustrated in evangelical churches today where mundane or silly announcements, special music, testimony times, mime, puppet shows, liturgical dance and Christian movies either completely replace or severely restrict the ordained parts of worship. These or other traditions of men, for instance, often leave only 20 minutes for preaching."

"That if sinful men were to add any unappointed elements into worship, they would, by this action, be calling into question the wisdom of Jesus Christ and the complete sufficiency of the Scriptures alone. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 states this, "all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for
reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that a man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." The man of God referred to in this text is not a reference to every individual Christian. There are compelling reasons rather to identify "the man of God any", as the man who like Timothy was charged to provide order and leadership to the Church of God. The elders in a church are to use the Scriptures in such a way to dictate what the order and structure of worship is to be. It is not that the elders implement their own worship, rather, by holding steadfastly to the word of God,
they implement what God states and desires for worship for the people of God. The Scriptures then, are able to fully equip the man of God for every good work in the Church of God, for the glory of God in worship."

"The Puritans were very adamant to prove that the Bible explicitly condemns all worship that is not commanded by God. Scriptures proving this are the following: Leviticus 10:1-3; Deuteronomy 17:3; Deuteronomy 4:2; Deuteronomy 12:29-32; Joshua 1:7; 23:6-8; Matthew 15:8-13; Colossians 2:20-23. We will look Leviticus 10:1-3 and then two New Testament verses that are listed here both in Matthew and Colossians."

"The Puritans desired simple, biblical worship. They regulated their worship by the Bible instead of their own "wills". They had no desire to offer strange fire no matter how "exciting" the strange fire would be to the spectators. They were not interested in putting on a show. When Elijah was on Mt. Carmel in 1 Kings 18, he asked the people if they were ready to follow God or Baal. When posed with the question, the people were silent. When Elijah said he wanted to have a "contest" with the priests (a "show"), what did the people do? They were all excited about it. "Yes! Let’s have a show!"

And so they did. The "contemporary church" is the same today. They want a show. They want fire to fall from heaven. They want the spectacular, or at least as entertaining as "church may be". But God is displeased. And if it were not for the grace of God, most "churches" today would be consumed as
Nadab and Abihu were."

Sola fide,

Christian

Mike Renihan said...

Wow! Need I say more? One has to have tough skin to go global.

Waldo

Stefan said...

Waldo,

I'm learning that the hard way.

Stefan said...

Jonathan,

I want to clarify something: I never "agreed to disagree," as you suggest.

By stating that we had differing views I was not suggesting that both views were equally valid or true. The God of truth does not dissumulate.

I have also read what you wrote to Christian, and you are on a slippery slope in suggesting (if not stating) that we simply need to sit back, read the Bible for ourselves, and content ourselves with our conclusions. Though men are fallible and fallen, we deny the sanctifying and illuminating work of the Spirit in others, and deny the noetic effects of sin in ourselves (among other things) when we reach such conclusions.

Scripture is the only certain, sufficient, and infallible rule of saving truth; but the church, in seeking to interpret and understand the Scriptures, is prideful and foolish, if it seeks not the wisdom of the past (and in a few cases, the present).

Calvin, for one, misunderstood a few things; but, I cannot help but read him and realize how greatly God used him in understanding not only the truths regarding man's salvation, but also in understanding the worship of the church. God used him and others greatly; I would be a fool if I did not seek to intepret the Scriptures along with the historic church (specifically as their doctrine was officially codified and enshrined in the historic Reformed confessions and catechisms).

Stefan

Unknown said...

Well this has been a most unfruitful discussion and a pure waste of time.

dapalma said...

John Calvin writes

"In reading profane authors, the admirable light of truth displayed in them should remind us that the human mind, however fallen and perverted from its original integrity, is still adorned and invested with admirable gifts from the Creator. If we reflect that the Spirit of God is the only fountain of truth, we will be careful, as we should avoid offering insults to Him, not to reject or condemn truth wherever it appears. In despising the gifts we insult the giver."

Christians should avoid quickly judging cultural expression as sacred or secular, because God reveals himself in both, through his common grace.

In their book Art and Soul (pages 67-68), Hilary Brand and Adrienne Chaplin write:

"Dualism is a word that can be applied to any split-vision worldview. It separates God's creation into distinct and opposing realms, one representing good, the other representing evil: holy versus profane, sacred versus secular, material versus spiritual....

[A] truly biblical worldview will not let us get away with such simplistic divides. The Bible frequently speaks in paradox, explaining truths not in terms of either/or by both/and: creation is both gloriously beautiful and tainted by sin; humanity is both made in God's image and fallen; Jesus is both fully human and fully divine; Christians are both redeemed from the curse and still suffering its consequences.

The problem comes when the line is drawn compartmentally rather than spiritually, putting certain aspects of culture inside the Kingdom of God and others outside. Rather we need to understand that the battle lines between good and evil run across all aspects of culture and every facet of life."

And in his article "Christianity and the Arts", Jerram Barrs writes,

"Repeatedly in the history of the Church, Christians have been tempted to devalue the richness of creation and therefore to devalue also the arts, as if it would be somehow more "spiritual" to live a life devoid of beauty, of good things, of music, of literature, of painting, of color, etc. It is as if bare simplicity, barrenness, and even ugliness were somehow considered to be more pleasing to God. Behind this idea is the conviction that it is only what is "spiritual" that matters, and that the physical, therefore, is only of secondary value at best. In this view, the arts are thought of as an optional, rather extravagant, and unnecessary extra in life. But this belief is nonsense, and is, according to Paul, a heresy of the most serious kind, for in the end it is a denial of the goodness of creation."